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hi everyone alex karras here from

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skeptic oh just wanted to give you a

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little youtube introduction to this

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interview that i recently published with

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dr. David Bentley Hart and here it is

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episode 298 really really interesting

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guy was really looking forward to

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talking to him if you are looking for

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someone to give just stunningly

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brilliant complete philosophical

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dismantling of atheism and this crazy

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materialism that is so much a part of

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science then you're gonna find nobody

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better than dr. David Bentley Hart and I

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in it and I enjoy talking to him about

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that of course he is also a Christian

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which I think poses some problems given

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the craziness of the baby Jesus

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hypothesis and the rest of that but we

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talked a little bit about that

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here is dr. dr. Hart again really bright

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guy interesting guy to talk to so you

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know one of the things we talked about

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was this idea of atheism and it reminded

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me of this energy I did with atheist

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John Loftus a while back you know where

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you kind of push the philosophical part

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of the atheist position with these folks

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and they just kind of yeah I'm a

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biological robot and a meaningless if

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that makes any sense but you know then

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the other thing I came back to dr. Hart

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with that I think is interesting is that

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you know if you really pull that apart I

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mean sure

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atheism is dumb philosophically but it

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is somewhat of a reactionary position to

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to the craziness of evangelical

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Christianity and the crazy you know

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books left behind books apocalyptic

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nonsense and case for Christ and all

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that stuff this really doesn't hold up

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to scholarship either so you know we

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talked about that we talked about is

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this

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reactionary position and should we have

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some compassion for the atheists given

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that you know a lot of people have been

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wounded badly by Christianity and you

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know what would you do if if you were

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one of those people that were or

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somebody in your family was molested by

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a Catholic priest or something like that

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I think you'd go running to atheists or

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someone who would kind of have a

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different point of view no the other

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thing that we talked about in this

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interview is kind of along this idea of

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you know is Christianity worth saving

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kind of thing something that I talked

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with mark Vernon about so I think you'll

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enjoy this I hope you will if you like

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these kind of topics I do a lot of

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skeptical listeners do not this one only

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got eighty to shears but I think the

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issues of spirituality are central to

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consciousness science because of course

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once you understand that the best

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scientific evidence we have suggests

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that consciousness is not limited to our

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brains it's not a brain based thing it's

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somehow extends beyond it's not

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somewhere extends beyond death then I

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think you get into all these issues of

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spirituality and I enjoyed talking about

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some of those with dr. David Bentley

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Hart I hope you like this interview on

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this episode of skeptic Oh

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so I think when your confidence in

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materialism wanes a little bit

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I think that's an opening for what

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you're talking about

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no you may be right but again let me put

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it this way there's a certain sort of

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psychology involved here that can erect

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defenses against that

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yeah if you can amass if you can

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accumulate sufficient evidence you know

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that they should call into question

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these easy and materialist assumptions

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yes sure that was a clarifying effect

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still again my interests are in in the

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whole activity set of logical

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assumptions underlying naturalism that

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accord with any experience at all not

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just extraordinary experiences

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic harris and on this

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episode and episode i've been looking

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forward to bringing to you for a while

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it's one that I really had to prepare

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for a lot you suggested dr. David

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Bentley Hart and I'm really glad you did

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but if you dig into his work one of the

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things you realize is that this is a

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very smart guy someone you want to be on

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your toes for when you're talking to

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them and if you doubt me then go check

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out some of the debates slash dialogues

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he's had with various atheist secular

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materialist types out there they are

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cringe worthy if you know what I mean

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so I prepared quite a bit for this

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interview and the other reason I did is

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because dr. Hart and I share a similar

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religious background

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he's Eastern Orthodox and I grew up in a

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Greek Orthodox Church in wil Manila Noi

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outside of Chicago where my brother and

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I would squirm around in the

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unbelievably uncomfortable wooden pews

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that they had until my very Greek very

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religious grandmother would be so

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frustrated that she would reach over

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with the just the tip of a straight pin

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and stick it in her and although that

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sounds really cruel it worked we didn't

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squirm a lot after that so that was my

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religious background as a kid and even

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though I'm not a Christian anymore

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one thing that's lingered from that

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whole experience is the question of what

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was really going on me

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why were these smart otherwise

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intelligent people and I know they are

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because I knew them outside of church

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why were they sitting there watching

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these grown men walk around with these

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huge icons and gold encrusted robes

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while they're swinging all this incense

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I mean why are they sitting through all

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this nonsense and why I may not have

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gotten a direct answer to that question

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during this dialogue with dr. David

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Bentley Hart I did get a pretty

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satisfying one because dr. Hart is the

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embodiment of the intellectual spiritual

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religious seeker now you're not gonna

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hear engaged in silly apologetics about

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empty tombs and baby Jesus and all the

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rest of that nonsense but what you will

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hear is someone who's thought deeply

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about the big big questions who are we

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why are we here and how do we relate to

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that ever-present little voice inside of

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our head these the questions I care

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about these are the questions I sought

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to answer with skeptical from the very

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beginning and these are the questions I

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think dr. Hart is after is well so I

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really enjoyed this dialogue we talked

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about a number of topics including the

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wacky metaphysics of no metaphysics that

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is atheism and has embedded itself in

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the secular / atheistic science that we

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encounter but we also look behind that

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and talk about what might really be

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going on with atheism and with

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Christianity and then finally under the

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end we get to some really good stuff

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consciousness bliss and what all this

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stuff might really be about it's a

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dialogue I really enjoyed having and one

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that I hope you like too here's dr.

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today we welcome theologian philosopher

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author and I got it add the label

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intellectual in there because dr. David

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Bentley Hart certainly does remind us of

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what it means to be a true intellectual

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dr. Hart is the author of several books

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including atheist delusions a book that

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was awarded the michael ramsey prize in

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theology and his latest the experience

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of God being consciousness bliss

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David welcomed a skeptic oh thanks so

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much for joining me

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thanks for inviting me first off I have

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to tell you I have had a great time

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digging into your work and I have to

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thank first off a couple of skeptical

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listeners in particular marker reached

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out and set up this interview it's been

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great for me I'm still I think trying to

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get my arms around everything you do so

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forgive me your writing is extraordinary

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it's a little dense I found myself

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jumping over to the dictionary more than

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a time or two but that's fun that's

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great and anyone will find well you know

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Goethe said it's a poor writer within

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the lexicon can keep pace love it well

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as an introduction to where you're

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coming from for my audience for the

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skeptical audience one of the things

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that comes through loud and clear is

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this most complete and eloquent

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dismantling of this crazy scientific

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materialism we talk so much about you

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right and let me read this for folks

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naturalism that is this idea also called

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materialism that we're all biological

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robots in a meaningless universe

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basically what naturalism means is a

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picture of the whole of reality that

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cannot according to its own intrinsic

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premises address the being of the whole

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and I love this next one it's a

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metaphysics of the rejection of

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metaphysics a transcendental certainty

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of the impossibility of transcendental

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truth and so requires an act of so pure

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credence logically immune from any

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verification brilliant stuff

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can you elaborate just a little bit on

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that I suppose I could yeah well I mean

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naturalism is is in a sense its own

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worst enemy because it's especially in

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the Anglophone world generally advanced

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as as a concurrent philosophy of the

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causal closure of the physical of the

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impossibility of thought reaching beyond

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the boundaries of natural cause Asian as

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we you know as we understand that

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Charlie the modern world we tend to

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think of nature as a result of of ideas

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that go back to the 17th century as

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meaning unguided mechanistic in

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processes that that yield as the residue

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of interactions and nutrition's and so

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forth they an ordered poem

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the problem is with naturalism is that

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it rules out of course all the Vantage's

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that it requires in order to certify

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itself that is it tells us that it tells

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us what we can't know but can only do so

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from the position beyond the totality of

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nature which is precisely the position

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it claims we can never occupy it so I

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think that's what that you'd have to

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remind me of the whole context of that

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sentence incidentally because when you

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write a lot you tend to forget what

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you've written where and when no I think

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you've I think you've captured it quite

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well both in that sentence or two and in

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your explanation of it I love the the

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metaphysics of the rejection of

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metaphysics because I think you know in

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in typical kind of new atheist fashion

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when you mention that their logical

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argument rests on metaphysics they often

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have this kinda curious look on their

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face like no no no no we're not into

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metaphysics you're into metaphysics it's

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like well no that's a metaphysical claim

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that you're making so III think you do a

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wonderful job of that not well it's

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inevitably so isn't it and it's not just

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the luck that their logic and quite and

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that's a rather generous term to use

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quite often but but just that the

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picture of reality itself is is a

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metaphysical dogma not a metaphysical

276
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system even right it's an assertion that

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yeah you know so I tell you what I what

278
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I'd like to do I actually have five

279
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questions for you and they're a little

280
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bit ok but don't ask anything about the

281
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my my experiences in Malaysia I'd like

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to keep that veiled in obscurity ok I

283
00:13:29,819 --> 00:13:27,759
have six questions so we're gonna kind

284
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of bounce around I'll try and frame each

285
00:13:33,059 --> 00:13:31,480
one and then you know maybe we'll

286
00:13:36,259 --> 00:13:33,069
publish each one of them separately I

287
00:13:40,169 --> 00:13:36,269
don't know but the first has to do with

288
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atheist reactionary ISM if you will I

289
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:42,399
don't not sure that's a word but you

290
00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:45,370
know you provide this searing attack of

291
00:13:51,299 --> 00:13:47,649
atheists that anyone who Tunes into in

292
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your videos on YouTube it's just it's

293
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just delightful stuff to listen to it's

294
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so fun to listen to and it's also packed

295
00:14:05,780 --> 00:13:57,339
with a lot of good points let me play

296
00:14:08,819 --> 00:14:05,790
folks here a clip they put it very

297
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simply and I think with absolute

298
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objectivity their books are

299
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:15,850
excruciatingly lately and when I first

300
00:14:22,889 --> 00:14:18,970
read them I have to admit that I was

301
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:22,899
just astonished that any excitement

302
00:14:28,049 --> 00:14:24,970
could be generated by books that were so

303
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:28,059
incoherent and that that were had such

304
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:32,370
an evidence of historical ignorance

305
00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:35,290
philosophical clumsiness sanctimony

306
00:14:43,319 --> 00:14:36,490
viciousness

307
00:14:46,139 --> 00:14:43,329
constant through all of them and and but

308
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:46,149
ultimately inanity the these were vated

309
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:47,580
books they were they were

310
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:51,040
faulty books or books that are the don't

311
00:14:53,850 --> 00:14:52,330
rise above the level of light

312
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entertainment for people who get a

313
00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:57,310
thrill from being insulting and that was

314
00:15:02,120 --> 00:14:59,100
from an interview you gave after

315
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:02,130
publishing your book atheist delusions

316
00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:04,810
with it's not my title I always have to

317
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:07,960
stick that in my title going that you

318
00:15:13,170 --> 00:15:09,490
have to live with it don't you

319
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:13,180
so here I guess is my question it's hard

320
00:15:19,050 --> 00:15:15,730
for me to argue with the main thrust of

321
00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:19,060
what you're saying and I've done

322
00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:21,430
probably two dozen shows on atheism and

323
00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:23,380
interviewed so many of the prominent

324
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:26,230
members of the Atheist community that I

325
00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:28,090
get where you're coming from but I also

326
00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:31,450
feel like my position visa v the Atheist

327
00:15:36,690 --> 00:15:33,910
has softened a little bit i mean first

328
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:36,700
off isn't this new a theism nonsense

329
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:39,760
really a reactionary position so you

330
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:41,170
know they might not have your

331
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:43,330
intellectual muscle David and they might

332
00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:45,310
not and they might be somewhat of knit

333
00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:47,350
wits about philosophy like you point out

334
00:15:55,610 --> 00:15:51,420
but they're reacting to the day-to-day

335
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:55,620
idiocy we get from some of the American

336
00:16:00,990 --> 00:15:58,480
evangelical community I mean just throw

337
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:01,000
stroll through the bestseller list of

338
00:16:06,450 --> 00:16:03,850
Christian books on Amazon you know the

339
00:16:09,930 --> 00:16:06,460
apocalyptic left behind books and the

340
00:16:12,660 --> 00:16:09,940
simple-minded apologetics of what's that

341
00:16:16,110 --> 00:16:12,670
book a case for Christ I mean these are

342
00:16:18,420 --> 00:16:16,120
not exactly everything but I can

343
00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:18,430
probably guess what it's like um like

344
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:21,400
these are not towering tombs Ernest I

345
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:24,310
think if you've read any of that before

346
00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:27,970
I think you you can say fairly I'm just

347
00:16:33,810 --> 00:16:31,270
as hard on on those people even if

348
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:33,820
they're not the object of what I'm

349
00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:36,370
writing about I so what about the

350
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:38,920
atheist as a reaction to that can't we

351
00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:40,810
kind of understand where they're coming

352
00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:43,750
from oh well it depends I mean it

353
00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:47,830
depends on whom you're talking about and

354
00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:49,720
don't leave out the other thing they're

355
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:54,460
reacting again like against is the rise

356
00:16:58,750 --> 00:16:58,240
in in violence perpetrated in the name

357
00:17:11,079 --> 00:16:58,760
of

358
00:17:13,390 --> 00:17:11,089
specifically as long as well so you know

359
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:13,400
there are all sorts of reactions and

360
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,439
reactionary currencies but but you have

361
00:17:20,049 --> 00:17:17,600
to treat it author by author in the case

362
00:17:22,590 --> 00:17:20,059
of Richard Dawkins I think you could be

363
00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:22,600
overly generous there it's true that

364
00:17:28,539 --> 00:17:26,089
that he's frustrated by six-day

365
00:17:30,580 --> 00:17:28,549
creationists but then again he goes out

366
00:17:34,650 --> 00:17:30,590
of his way to seek them out and refuses

367
00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:34,660
to engage an argument with persons of

368
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:37,580
more sophisticated philosophical or

369
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:39,650
theological or historical training and

370
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,070
at that point he looks you given that

371
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:45,520
there's something opportunistic in his

372
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:49,910
reactions right he could if he wanted

373
00:17:54,039 --> 00:17:52,130
and he brags about this a talks you know

374
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:54,049
if he thinks he's going to the belly of

375
00:18:01,169 --> 00:17:57,110
the beast when in fact he's dealing with

376
00:18:04,270 --> 00:18:01,179
a very specific socio-economic cultural

377
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:04,280
reality situated largely in the United

378
00:18:10,570 --> 00:18:07,730
States if not exclusively and he is

379
00:18:13,270 --> 00:18:10,580
clever enough to know that he's not

380
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:13,280
really astute enough philosophically or

381
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:14,450
good enough on his feet

382
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:17,360
that he could enter into debate publicly

383
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:20,690
with serious interlocutors and come out

384
00:18:25,150 --> 00:18:22,640
looking good and the few times he has

385
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:25,160
done that he has you know he's not like

386
00:18:31,270 --> 00:18:28,210
Jerry Coyne sort of his American

387
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:31,280
derivative lesser lesser derivative but

388
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:33,049
ok you know what was the problem with

389
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:34,610
point is he doesn't really he he

390
00:18:38,409 --> 00:18:35,990
actually doesn't know what he doesn't

391
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:38,419
know and so he does weighed in and he

392
00:18:42,430 --> 00:18:40,910
does make a fool of himself and the good

393
00:18:45,010 --> 00:18:42,440
and the good thing about that is he's

394
00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:45,020
just stepped back and let him go but

395
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:47,240
Dawkins I don't know if Dawkins is

396
00:18:50,380 --> 00:18:49,130
reactionary in the same way Christopher

397
00:18:56,020 --> 00:18:50,390
Hitchens

398
00:18:58,570 --> 00:18:56,030
alas departed was a real moralist I mean

399
00:19:01,240 --> 00:18:58,580
that this is true and though he didn't

400
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,250
have any great speculative gifts I mean

401
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:04,400
basically he was a journalist and when

402
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:06,530
he touched on philosophical or

403
00:19:11,020 --> 00:19:08,570
speculative issues he it was clear that

404
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:11,030
he was very much out of his depth and he

405
00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:11,360
was

406
00:19:16,330 --> 00:19:13,160
to rush by them as quickly as possible

407
00:19:18,430 --> 00:19:16,340
but of them all he was the most

408
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:18,440
respectable because there was a sort of

409
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:22,400
intense moral seriousness there that

410
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:25,730
sometimes got veiled behind the the

411
00:19:30,940 --> 00:19:27,650
character he created for himself in

412
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:30,950
public and in fact there was supposed to

413
00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:33,890
be a debate between him and me I think

414
00:19:37,390 --> 00:19:35,270
it was gonna be a Columbia I don't

415
00:19:40,210 --> 00:19:37,400
remember the details and and that was

416
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:40,220
being set up just at the time his you

417
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:41,840
know he felt very ill and his cancer

418
00:19:49,539 --> 00:19:44,000
misdiagnosed and I would have enjoyed

419
00:19:51,370 --> 00:19:49,549
that debate for one thing it would have

420
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:51,380
given me a chance to see if the Jack

421
00:19:56,919 --> 00:19:54,230
Daniels and in the coffee cup was this

422
00:20:01,930 --> 00:19:56,929
true or urban legend but the other thing

423
00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:01,940
is that even even if you you know there

424
00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:05,929
were things he was reacting against of a

425
00:20:11,770 --> 00:20:07,580
different not necessarily the ones

426
00:20:12,909 --> 00:20:11,780
you're thinking of he actually but there

427
00:20:17,669 --> 00:20:12,919
were there was a certain moral

428
00:20:20,049 --> 00:20:17,679
seriousness there I again it depends on

429
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:20,059
which New Atheists are talking about

430
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:22,130
Dennett Daniel Dennett is for a long

431
00:20:26,289 --> 00:20:23,840
time than engaged in a philosophical

432
00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:26,299
project of his own that I I think is

433
00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:29,240
fundamentally incoherent right but what

434
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:32,600
is he reacting against I don't know his

435
00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:35,690
his concern his his passions seem to be

436
00:20:41,289 --> 00:20:38,030
rooted much more deeply than them sort

437
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:41,299
of frustration I think they are rooted

438
00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:43,130
deeply and I think that that kind of

439
00:20:47,770 --> 00:20:46,070
leads into my second question is is it

440
00:20:50,799 --> 00:20:47,780
what really is at play for a lot of

441
00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:50,809
these folks is a deep wounding that's

442
00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:53,120
been done by Christianity that's never

443
00:20:57,130 --> 00:20:55,460
kind of brought to the surface so again

444
00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:57,140
you know we can call the logic

445
00:21:01,870 --> 00:20:59,390
incoherent and they're crappy

446
00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:01,880
metaphysics but if you have a family

447
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:03,740
member who's been sexually abused by a

448
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:07,010
Catholic priest you don't know how

449
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:09,200
necessarily to express that or if you're

450
00:21:14,260 --> 00:21:11,390
gay or lesbian you told you know God

451
00:21:16,539 --> 00:21:14,270
hates or whatever the however

452
00:21:18,850 --> 00:21:16,549
you're told that message you know you

453
00:21:21,549 --> 00:21:18,860
have a deep pain there and then these

454
00:21:24,370 --> 00:21:21,559
guys come along and they say wow here's

455
00:21:25,180 --> 00:21:24,380
someone articulating what I what I feel

456
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:25,190
but can't

457
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:26,930
and they sound so smart I mean isn't

458
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,080
that the the lure a lot of times for and

459
00:21:35,260 --> 00:21:32,720
I mean III I'm willing to give if we're

460
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:35,270
just talking in general about people who

461
00:21:40,060 --> 00:21:37,610
reject faith or reject Christianity and

462
00:21:41,410 --> 00:21:40,070
I'm willing to give the more credit

463
00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:41,420
either than that it may not just be

464
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:47,350
personal aggrieved personal grievances

465
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:50,320
we we live in a reality in which

466
00:21:56,650 --> 00:21:53,170
children die of incurable diseases

467
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:56,660
chance disaster destroys innocent people

468
00:22:03,330 --> 00:21:58,400
and innocent lives pain as ubiquitous

469
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:03,340
death is inevitable so there are serious

470
00:22:09,910 --> 00:22:07,490
moral spiritual existential reasons to

471
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:09,920
rebel against the frame of reality I'm

472
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:11,930
no problem with that and if it's

473
00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:15,530
conducted in that register with that

474
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:20,270
intonation a serious atheism is a is you

475
00:22:22,990 --> 00:22:20,510
know

476
00:22:24,970 --> 00:22:23,000
one of the great accomplishments of 19th

477
00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:24,980
and 20th century especially serious

478
00:22:31,780 --> 00:22:28,220
thought and I'm and I and I admire it I

479
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:31,790
revere it the new atheist so I'm not

480
00:22:37,090 --> 00:22:34,850
willing to put in the company of a canoe

481
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:37,100
or a Nietzsche

482
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:39,440
or a seriously reflective atheist

483
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:42,260
because of the what they have produced

484
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:45,710
does not merit comparison with the works

485
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:48,770
of those those thinkers and so I would

486
00:22:53,890 --> 00:22:50,810
want to make a distinction there but I

487
00:22:57,670 --> 00:22:53,900
have nothing against atheism as such it

488
00:23:00,190 --> 00:22:57,680
is specifically this sort of willfully

489
00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:00,200
historically ignorant inadvertently

490
00:23:08,530 --> 00:23:04,060
philosophically incompetent and and

491
00:23:10,810 --> 00:23:08,540
rhetorically vicious atheism that has

492
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:10,820
seized you know popular attention

493
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,110
although it seems to be a bit on the

494
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:14,240
wane now an influence to be honest I

495
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:17,510
mean 2006 was the annus mirabilis of the

496
00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:21,340
movement and and it did it was you know

497
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:24,500
it enjoyed a certain buoyancy in the

498
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:30,050
aftermath of 9/11 and so on but of late

499
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:32,210
if for instance in England whenever I'm

500
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:34,010
back in England I can't help but notice

501
00:23:41,409 --> 00:23:38,480
now Richard Dawkins has ceased to be you

502
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:41,419
Ursula revered in media I mean now the

503
00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:45,110
BBC and in the newspapers I tend to

504
00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:47,510
treat him with somewhat more aloofness

505
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,020
and sometimes ridicule and in part

506
00:23:56,530 --> 00:23:54,080
that's because his public % personality

507
00:23:57,940 --> 00:23:56,540
boarded merchants the less tolerant it

508
00:23:59,500 --> 00:23:57,950
seems and then of course

509
00:24:02,110 --> 00:23:59,510
apparently he discovered Twitter

510
00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:02,120
recently that was it stayed I don't know

511
00:24:06,010 --> 00:24:04,100
I don't follow social media very close

512
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:06,020
social so anyway I'm sorry that was

513
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:08,330
longer but I do want to make a serious

514
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:11,210
moral and and intellectually coherent

515
00:24:17,650 --> 00:24:15,080
rejection of of the the tenets of faith

516
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:17,660
of the possibility of a good God all

517
00:24:21,340 --> 00:24:19,490
that I've no I'm no issues with that

518
00:24:24,549 --> 00:24:21,350
whatsoever but I don't think in our

519
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:24,559
present cultural moment that those are

520
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:26,809
the people who are making the biggest

521
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:29,540
splash well I would agree with you and

522
00:24:33,789 --> 00:24:30,950
that kind of leads into my third

523
00:24:36,370 --> 00:24:33,799
question that is this new atheist kind

524
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:36,380
of flag-waving thing maybe has waned but

525
00:24:43,810 --> 00:24:41,090
hasn't it really real or been recast as

526
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:43,820
this what I think is a phony culture war

527
00:24:49,570 --> 00:24:46,370
debate between science and religion that

528
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:49,580
we keep being told is kind of central to

529
00:24:55,030 --> 00:24:52,640
our culture and what's going on and to

530
00:24:58,090 --> 00:24:55,040
me it's so and I think you point this

531
00:24:59,770 --> 00:24:58,100
out in a number of ways it's so funny

532
00:25:02,230 --> 00:24:59,780
because what's being passed off as

533
00:25:03,610 --> 00:25:02,240
science is again this awkward

534
00:25:05,289 --> 00:25:03,620
metaphysics that you're talking about

535
00:25:08,590 --> 00:25:05,299
that comes to the conclusion that life

536
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:08,600
is meaningless and yeah a proposition

537
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:10,850
that any kind of man on the street if

538
00:25:14,860 --> 00:25:12,590
you will would just laugh and someone's

539
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:14,870
faced him I'm a biological robot my life

540
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:16,970
is meaningless the love I share with my

541
00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:18,770
family and you know that doesn't mean

542
00:25:24,220 --> 00:25:21,070
anything ridiculous no it buys into that

543
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:24,230
well you can convince people to buy into

544
00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:26,090
a great deal though I mean they're I

545
00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:27,860
will disagree with you in the sense that

546
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:31,160
people can't live that way but the

547
00:25:35,950 --> 00:25:32,960
doubleness of consciousness is always

548
00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:35,960
possible it's amazing to me since the

549
00:25:40,330 --> 00:25:38,030
publication of The Selfish Gene for

550
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:40,340
instance and I mean I answer your bigger

551
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:42,530
question at a moment if I remember after

552
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:45,470
I go on in Mormon law but uh The Selfish

553
00:25:48,909 --> 00:25:46,250
Gene

554
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:48,919
was a bad book as a work of science

555
00:25:54,330 --> 00:25:50,770
right

556
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:54,340
from its its its social provocations no

557
00:25:58,950 --> 00:25:56,290
one I mean even even at the time it

558
00:26:01,920 --> 00:25:58,960
appeared it was a sort of a debt issue I

559
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:01,930
mean no one no serious molecular

560
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:04,690
biologist thinks of the gene in terms of

561
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:07,270
a master code that inexorably unfolds

562
00:26:12,660 --> 00:26:10,210
into three-dimensional structures and

563
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:12,670
hence therefore the complete code of

564
00:26:18,290 --> 00:26:14,290
life and and at the same time in some

565
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:18,300
mysterious sense the dynamism of of

566
00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:23,470
expression in biological even complex

567
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:26,020
organic systems I mean if you look at

568
00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:29,250
the state of molecular biology now a

569
00:26:33,540 --> 00:26:31,960
whole variety of causalities are

570
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:33,550
considered all the different ways in

571
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:35,530
which gene expression is controlled the

572
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:38,530
actual paucity to be honest of coding

573
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:40,390
where you expected in the genomic

574
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:42,370
sequence has been one of the surprises

575
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:44,890
of the human genome C but the funny

576
00:26:49,130 --> 00:26:46,810
thing is is that was already pretty well

577
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:49,140
known at the time that book appeared

578
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:51,250
absolutely but that's the real that's

579
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:53,290
the real schizophrenia that we live and

580
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:54,940
that's the emperor has no clothes so

581
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:56,770
right so you can read you can read

582
00:26:59,940 --> 00:26:58,720
Dawkins if you're a molecular biologist

583
00:27:02,250 --> 00:26:59,950
but you have to hold your mouth and

584
00:27:05,130 --> 00:27:02,260
chuckle I mean you can't do it out loud

585
00:27:08,370 --> 00:27:05,140
don't miss the the crucial point which

586
00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:08,380
is that the metaphor of genetic

587
00:27:13,050 --> 00:27:11,230
selfishness and the persistence of this

588
00:27:16,170 --> 00:27:13,060
if you think of this quasi nah see this

589
00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:16,180
is absolutely silly and and logically

590
00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:17,980
incoherent notion that the real reason

591
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:20,800
what we do things is actually this thing

592
00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:22,930
this genetic selfishness which is

593
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:26,380
already and and in apt metaphor how

594
00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:28,510
pervasive that's become we'll just see

595
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:30,520
it on television ear the radio read it

596
00:27:34,260 --> 00:27:31,870
in the press the point where people

597
00:27:37,110 --> 00:27:34,270
repeat it is just a given as a sense oh

598
00:27:39,090 --> 00:27:37,120
it's not a scientific view it's true

599
00:27:41,790 --> 00:27:39,100
let's see David that's my point I think

600
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:41,800
that is a constructed phony debate

601
00:27:47,670 --> 00:27:45,250
because you know that fits so well into

602
00:27:49,290 --> 00:27:47,680
our if you I hate the term secular

603
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:49,300
culture but in terms of our

604
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:52,050
consumeristic materialistic soul

605
00:27:56,610 --> 00:27:54,790
eliminated culture that we like to put

606
00:27:58,650 --> 00:27:56,620
that and then we'd like to put that up

607
00:28:00,480 --> 00:27:58,660
against oh because if you don't buy into

608
00:28:02,790 --> 00:28:00,490
that then you're going to be buy into

609
00:28:04,259 --> 00:28:02,800
this wacky religion over here that is

610
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:04,269
going to make you

611
00:28:07,739 --> 00:28:06,399
there's blind obedience to this dogma

612
00:28:09,869 --> 00:28:07,749
and all the rest I think it's a

613
00:28:11,789 --> 00:28:09,879
constructed debate because it's the

614
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:11,799
debate that allows our culture to move

615
00:28:17,009 --> 00:28:14,080
forward in the way that you know

616
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:17,019
promotes this consumeristic society that

617
00:28:23,699 --> 00:28:21,039
we have again if you've read enough

618
00:28:23,969 --> 00:28:23,709
myself obviously you know I agree with

619
00:28:29,639 --> 00:28:23,979
that

620
00:28:31,919 --> 00:28:29,649
this notion of the great war between

621
00:28:35,099 --> 00:28:31,929
science and religion or reason and faith

622
00:28:36,959 --> 00:28:35,109
is something in a sense it's born in the

623
00:28:38,849 --> 00:28:36,969
18th century but really it's at the end

624
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:38,859
of the 19th century and people like

625
00:28:44,129 --> 00:28:41,289
Andrew Dixon white writing fake

626
00:28:49,289 --> 00:28:44,139
histories of the history of the story of

627
00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:49,299
the West that created created it's so

628
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:51,809
funny I mean can you imagine telling

629
00:29:01,199 --> 00:28:55,570
Evans shredding shredding or Neil's bar

630
00:29:03,569 --> 00:29:01,209
that their commitment to of the

631
00:29:07,339 --> 00:29:03,579
Copenhagen interpretation of quantum

632
00:29:12,749 --> 00:29:07,349
physics or so quantum indeterminacy

633
00:29:16,169 --> 00:29:12,759
somehow it was in odds with their their

634
00:29:18,089 --> 00:29:16,179
rather deep religious intuitions and

635
00:29:22,139 --> 00:29:18,099
beliefs of directions which they saw as

636
00:29:24,869 --> 00:29:22,149
being rationally inevitable in some

637
00:29:26,819 --> 00:29:24,879
sense things they discover no I mean

638
00:29:28,619 --> 00:29:26,829
obviously it's it's a fake dichotomy you

639
00:29:30,569 --> 00:29:28,629
find it more in biology than anywhere

640
00:29:33,019 --> 00:29:30,579
else curiously enough in the realm of

641
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,029
physics even the people who run

642
00:29:38,459 --> 00:29:35,440
associated academic associations of

643
00:29:41,099 --> 00:29:38,469
physics may may be quite often

644
00:29:44,369 --> 00:29:41,109
unthinking materialists as a rule among

645
00:29:49,829 --> 00:29:44,379
physicists and mathematicians and people

646
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:49,839
outside biology the the percentage of

647
00:29:56,940 --> 00:29:52,690
those who consider themselves strict

648
00:29:59,849 --> 00:29:56,950
materialists isn't conspicuously larger

649
00:30:02,119 --> 00:29:59,859
than in the educated class at large in

650
00:30:04,979 --> 00:30:02,129
in America so you know it's not really

651
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:04,989
but in look in biology there there's an

652
00:30:11,159 --> 00:30:07,919
ideological war still being fought and

653
00:30:13,379 --> 00:30:11,169
neo-darwinian isn't being via the model

654
00:30:14,250 --> 00:30:13,389
of biology that is triumphant at the

655
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:14,260
moment and

656
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:18,010
that you know decades ago displaced

657
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:25,390
other understandings more you know other

658
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:28,720
ways of approaching biology the sort of

659
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:31,120
the classical Victorian semi

660
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:33,520
Aristotelian approach to complex

661
00:30:39,060 --> 00:30:36,370
organisms has been displaced by a

662
00:30:41,730 --> 00:30:39,070
specific kind of neo-darwinian Ginetta

663
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:41,740
centric biology and there there is a

664
00:30:47,070 --> 00:30:43,870
there is a working metaphysics that's

665
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:47,080
not just tacit but that is part of the

666
00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:48,910
whole project I mean it is the

667
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:51,940
mechanization of nature and and that's

668
00:30:57,270 --> 00:30:53,890
where you really find this mythology

669
00:30:59,640 --> 00:30:57,280
promoted with the most vigor let's talk

670
00:31:02,940 --> 00:30:59,650
about something more important let's

671
00:31:04,410 --> 00:31:02,950
talk about transcendence one of the

672
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:04,420
things I really like about your book the

673
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:07,210
experience of God being consciousness

674
00:31:12,750 --> 00:31:10,510
bliss is that as with all your writing

675
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:12,760
it's it's poetic and at the same time

676
00:31:18,810 --> 00:31:15,370
it's intellectually rigorous and I think

677
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:18,820
that in and of itself embodies this

678
00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:21,160
coming together of the head and the

679
00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:23,980
heart that I think is central to what

680
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:26,920
you're trying to bring to us in terms of

681
00:31:32,070 --> 00:31:29,740
how we can understand spiritually

682
00:31:35,370 --> 00:31:32,080
transformative experiences and this

683
00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:35,380
awakening that I think I observe seems

684
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:37,870
to be happening to a larger and larger

685
00:31:41,820 --> 00:31:40,090
number of people you know one of those

686
00:31:43,230 --> 00:31:41,830
shows out there that I really like and

687
00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:43,240
this guy's been on my show several times

688
00:31:54,570 --> 00:31:51,840
so each week Rick Archer interviews

689
00:31:57,150 --> 00:31:54,580
folks who seem to be going through these

690
00:31:58,800 --> 00:31:57,160
profound spiritual awakenings as

691
00:32:01,740 --> 00:31:58,810
transcendence and sometimes it's you

692
00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:01,750
know it's a very prominently guys been

693
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:04,120
on several times a Christian monk living

694
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:06,490
in a monastery for 15 years he's praying

695
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:09,730
and boom he has what the Hindus would

696
00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:11,770
call a Kundalini experience but

697
00:32:15,660 --> 00:32:13,300
sometimes it's ordinary people who have

698
00:32:18,090 --> 00:32:15,670
had a near-death it probably more like a

699
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:18,100
Toria experienced but I'm just guessing

700
00:32:22,590 --> 00:32:20,230
anyway go on as I've heard and as is

701
00:32:25,740 --> 00:32:22,600
reflected in the very title of this book

702
00:32:27,810 --> 00:32:25,750
being consciousness bliss but but you

703
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:27,820
can you can may be exhausting

704
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:29,650
speed entry there for no good reason so

705
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:32,890
just go the point is or the question is

706
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:35,890
you know what's going on here what is

707
00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:39,330
happening with this deep transformative

708
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:41,500
experience of God to borrow the title

709
00:32:46,530 --> 00:32:44,530
from your book is is there something at

710
00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:46,540
play is there something in the air

711
00:32:52,170 --> 00:32:49,780
that's causing more people to achieve

712
00:32:54,030 --> 00:32:52,180
this state that we you know when I was a

713
00:32:57,150 --> 00:32:54,040
kid I mean this was the kind of thing

714
00:32:59,940 --> 00:32:57,160
you thought a few Saints and mystics

715
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,950
maybe achieved you know a couple times

716
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:01,840
on the planet but now it seems to be

717
00:33:05,220 --> 00:33:03,370
happening more regularly do you see that

718
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:05,230
do you believe that or are you inclined

719
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:07,210
to think of it maybe that's kind of

720
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:08,650
internet hype I don't know

721
00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:11,530
yeah I'm unaware of it if it's true to

722
00:33:16,590 --> 00:33:14,620
be honest but it doesn't it wouldn't

723
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:16,600
surprise me one way or the other but my

724
00:33:22,290 --> 00:33:19,890
real my claim my answer to that would be

725
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:22,300
that it's always been more common than

726
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:26,890
we imagined and I don't as a rule even

727
00:33:34,790 --> 00:33:31,510
though my interest in in mysticism or

728
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:34,800
all the great traditions goes very deep

729
00:33:39,510 --> 00:33:37,870
when I write about consciousness I I

730
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:39,520
write about the experience of the

731
00:33:43,650 --> 00:33:41,710
transcendent right within the midst of

732
00:33:47,220 --> 00:33:43,660
the ordinary that every ordinary act of

733
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:47,230
consciousness is already saturated with

734
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:49,720
with a with a sort of primordial

735
00:33:54,660 --> 00:33:51,850
knowledge of transcendence so if there

736
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:54,670
is I don't know I mean it's something

737
00:34:00,060 --> 00:33:55,930
that I think it would be talked about

738
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:00,070
more the more oppressively mechanistic

739
00:34:10,110 --> 00:34:06,910
the the tacit orthodoxy becomes the more

740
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:10,120
striking and in some sense urgent the

741
00:34:15,810 --> 00:34:13,330
expressions of experiences that don't

742
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:15,820
fit into that picture are likely to be

743
00:34:20,220 --> 00:34:17,890
whether it's actually happening more

744
00:34:22,170 --> 00:34:20,230
frequently at this moment then and up at

745
00:34:24,570 --> 00:34:22,180
other times I I don't know I mean really

746
00:34:26,370 --> 00:34:24,580
I don't know how to quantify it and

747
00:34:29,940 --> 00:34:26,380
you're actually erasing a question

748
00:34:33,650 --> 00:34:29,950
that's new to me I I'm not aware of that

749
00:34:37,890 --> 00:34:33,660
but it wouldn't surprise me

750
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:37,900
mostly because I think that what we tend

751
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:41,110
to think of as an unusual

752
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:44,110
a mystical experience is in many ways

753
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:47,260
the intensification of something that's

754
00:34:53,010 --> 00:34:49,530
already present to us in our ordinary

755
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:53,020
experience when we attend to it right

756
00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:55,510
and all the great spiritual traditions I

757
00:34:58,980 --> 00:34:57,280
mean you mentioned I don't know what

758
00:35:01,080 --> 00:34:58,990
Buddha at the gas pump means really but

759
00:35:03,450 --> 00:35:01,090
I mean you know there is you know how

760
00:35:05,490 --> 00:35:03,460
many of these traditions were there you

761
00:35:07,710 --> 00:35:05,500
know the Christian writings of Evagrius

762
00:35:12,660 --> 00:35:07,720
potica stand and Maximus the Confessor

763
00:35:15,420 --> 00:35:12,670
or yogacara chedda mantra texts and

764
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:15,430
Buddhism or a burrito or hashish and

765
00:35:20,730 --> 00:35:18,370
fy'y to fatten to text the attention to

766
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:20,740
ordinary states of consciousness that

767
00:35:29,010 --> 00:35:24,910
discovers already the degree to which

768
00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:29,020
they at the very ground of human

769
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:31,870
awareness is is what is irreducibly

770
00:35:37,020 --> 00:35:35,710
transcendent of finite causes right the

771
00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:37,030
buddha ting didn't go through and

772
00:35:41,970 --> 00:35:39,790
awakening the buddha realized he was

773
00:35:44,010 --> 00:35:41,980
already in that state right isn't that

774
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:44,020
the the essence of the Buddhist teaching

775
00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:46,090
is that well it depends on which school

776
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:49,150
you're talking right for you know I mean

777
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:50,110
there there's some very radical

778
00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:52,090
statements like that and saying Hong

779
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:54,760
Kong Khushi so Buddhism in Japan others

780
00:35:59,970 --> 00:35:56,890
it depends I mean let me just say there

781
00:36:03,150 --> 00:35:59,980
Buddhism is as every bit as various and

782
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:03,160
in its expressions as Christianity or

783
00:36:11,370 --> 00:36:06,310
any other long tradition we thought with

784
00:36:14,010 --> 00:36:11,380
a large speculative history but yes I

785
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:14,020
mean it's it's not an awakening in the

786
00:36:18,090 --> 00:36:15,730
say it's not it's not as if he was

787
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:18,100
transformed into something else it's

788
00:36:27,390 --> 00:36:21,490
that he touched the ground of the

789
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:27,400
reality that was always there and you

790
00:36:31,890 --> 00:36:30,460
know my conviction and the way I

791
00:36:34,670 --> 00:36:31,900
approach these things because of course

792
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:34,680
I'm also working within a

793
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:37,260
phenomenological tradition in philosophy

794
00:36:42,510 --> 00:36:40,810
is that if you examine the act of

795
00:36:47,550 --> 00:36:42,520
consciousness in which you are engaged

796
00:36:50,359 --> 00:36:47,560
when you're you know choosing a tie you

797
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:50,369
already find

798
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:53,680
dynamism that exceed the possibilities

799
00:36:59,549 --> 00:36:56,250
of the naturalist picture of reality

800
00:37:02,309 --> 00:36:59,559
okay last question and has to do with

801
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:02,319
the future of Christianity in your book

802
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:04,089
atheist delusions which again you didn't

803
00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:05,470
pick that part of the title you pick the

804
00:37:07,589 --> 00:37:07,089
subtitle but I think you got to live

805
00:37:09,529 --> 00:37:07,599
with it

806
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:09,539
alright hey I think it's sold some books

807
00:37:13,950 --> 00:37:11,650
yeah they know what they're doing in

808
00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:13,960
that regard don't they and also in this

809
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:16,150
in this latest book experience of God

810
00:37:21,380 --> 00:37:17,650
you know you do

811
00:37:24,809 --> 00:37:21,390
really a masterful job of reclaiming

812
00:37:28,049 --> 00:37:24,819
Christian history from the sloppy

813
00:37:30,749 --> 00:37:28,059
rewriting it's gotten from atheistic

814
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:30,759
academia over the years but here's the

815
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:32,079
hard question you know what are we

816
00:37:37,799 --> 00:37:34,720
really trying to preserve and protect I

817
00:37:39,870 --> 00:37:37,809
mean you're an inspiring guy I can grab

818
00:37:42,210 --> 00:37:39,880
a couple yearbooks maybe a couple others

819
00:37:44,309 --> 00:37:42,220
get a group of friends together and I'm

820
00:37:46,859 --> 00:37:44,319
good right I mean unless there's a

821
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:46,869
funeral or her wedding going on down at

822
00:37:51,839 --> 00:37:49,210
the church what do I need to go down

823
00:37:54,109 --> 00:37:51,849
there for I mean well the counter

824
00:37:56,549 --> 00:37:54,119
hypothesis I think to Christian

825
00:37:58,920 --> 00:37:56,559
Christianity is one that I think you're

826
00:38:02,249 --> 00:37:58,930
talking all about and that's that gnosis

827
00:38:03,059 --> 00:38:02,259
shows up you know if I'm there if I'm

828
00:38:06,799 --> 00:38:03,069
open

829
00:38:09,690 --> 00:38:06,809
gnosis shows up why do I need this

830
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:09,700
institution for well of course that

831
00:38:14,549 --> 00:38:13,210
question is going to we have different

832
00:38:16,769 --> 00:38:14,559
inflections according to which

833
00:38:20,009 --> 00:38:16,779
institution in which experience you have

834
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:20,019
it you take it were raised Greek

835
00:38:28,859 --> 00:38:24,250
Orthodox right yes I was yes well I am

836
00:38:30,450 --> 00:38:28,869
Eastern Orthodox myself so it but that I

837
00:38:36,210 --> 00:38:30,460
wasn't raised though it was raised high

838
00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:36,220
Anglican yeah I mean if gnosis is what

839
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,000
you're after it's it's it's true that

840
00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:42,880
you're not constrained to finding it

841
00:38:48,839 --> 00:38:46,660
only and in fact if you're subjected to

842
00:38:51,329 --> 00:38:48,849
a certain kind of sermon which is which

843
00:38:54,990 --> 00:38:51,339
is all too common you're likely to find

844
00:38:58,140 --> 00:38:55,000
it an impediment that's it but the

845
00:39:01,140 --> 00:38:58,150
spiritual life is a spiritual life of

846
00:39:02,859 --> 00:39:01,150
community for one thing within Christian

847
00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:02,869
thoughts specifically

848
00:39:11,319 --> 00:39:07,609
it is it is to be become part of a body

849
00:39:14,259 --> 00:39:11,329
of love and knowledge if you know in

850
00:39:16,689 --> 00:39:14,269
your this this is an old question after

851
00:39:21,729 --> 00:39:16,699
all in every tradition you don't have to

852
00:39:25,779 --> 00:39:21,739
just address Christianity one of the

853
00:39:28,449 --> 00:39:25,789
great differences between the Mahayana

854
00:39:30,429 --> 00:39:28,459
tradition and Buddhism and traditions I

855
00:39:32,259 --> 00:39:30,439
should say and what they call Hinayana

856
00:39:34,359 --> 00:39:32,269
unless serve it well let's do it's just

857
00:39:37,329 --> 00:39:34,369
to call it a be Dharma Buddhism say yes

858
00:39:40,449 --> 00:39:37,339
is this great assault on the ethos of

859
00:39:43,179 --> 00:39:40,459
the practica Buddha who strives only for

860
00:39:46,269 --> 00:39:43,189
his own lighten meant and and it's not

861
00:39:49,539 --> 00:39:46,279
moved by the greater compassion the maha

862
00:39:52,599 --> 00:39:49,549
Karuna that's described by say something

863
00:39:54,759 --> 00:39:52,609
like shanti devi in and when you dwell

864
00:39:57,789 --> 00:39:54,769
in that compassion the compassion of the

865
00:40:01,509 --> 00:39:57,799
bodhisattva who for goes as an entrance

866
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:01,519
into nirvana in order to strive for the

867
00:40:07,089 --> 00:40:04,130
salvation of all you find that that

868
00:40:08,949 --> 00:40:07,099
compassion that love itself is the

869
00:40:11,709 --> 00:40:08,959
enlightenment to which every other

870
00:40:15,279 --> 00:40:11,719
enlightenment is only a foreshadowing

871
00:40:19,059 --> 00:40:15,289
and and so the body salford discovers

872
00:40:21,219 --> 00:40:19,069
that in samsara and Nirvana or one well

873
00:40:24,429 --> 00:40:21,229
in Christian thought you know especially

874
00:40:28,809 --> 00:40:24,439
this this is this is you know the body

875
00:40:30,849 --> 00:40:28,819
of love of the God who pours himself out

876
00:40:32,949 --> 00:40:30,859
into nothingness you know the great

877
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:32,959
Philippians him in order to unite

878
00:40:43,390 --> 00:40:38,209
creatures to himself is is a experience

879
00:40:45,279 --> 00:40:43,400
that is as much charity as gnosis you

880
00:40:48,759 --> 00:40:45,289
talked about uniting head and heart well

881
00:40:50,769 --> 00:40:48,769
the heart doesn't really do well in its

882
00:40:54,669 --> 00:40:50,779
you know in its own living room by

883
00:40:57,519 --> 00:40:54,679
itself but what do you need it for

884
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:57,529
well I mean again if you if we get into

885
00:41:03,999 --> 00:40:59,599
doctrinal issues that becomes a boring

886
00:41:06,729 --> 00:41:04,009
conversation but if if you do I believe

887
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:06,739
that gnosis is enough if gnosis doesn't

888
00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:13,130
mean life in continuity with a community

889
00:41:19,340 --> 00:41:16,110
devoted to the same trends

890
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:19,350
horizon of love and knowledge no I'd say

891
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:21,090
that's not I mean that's not a real

892
00:41:26,990 --> 00:41:25,530
awakening yet that's no that's a kind of

893
00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:27,000
enlightenment but it's not yet a

894
00:41:30,770 --> 00:41:29,460
transformation of the self right but as

895
00:41:35,660 --> 00:41:30,780
you alluded to I mean I think that

896
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:35,670
gnosis leads to no matter no matter what

897
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:38,490
the on-ramp we take we're gonna be on

898
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,800
that highway of love and compassion

899
00:41:44,630 --> 00:41:42,480
because there's only one you know

900
00:41:47,330 --> 00:41:44,640
there's only one highway together I mean

901
00:41:51,140 --> 00:41:47,340
occasionally I have discovered destroy

902
00:41:52,790 --> 00:41:51,150
you know sometimes for instance I've

903
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:52,800
talked to people who considered

904
00:41:57,500 --> 00:41:55,010
themselves perennial lists and

905
00:42:00,410 --> 00:41:57,510
specifically within what they understand

906
00:42:03,620 --> 00:42:00,420
to be the Advaita Vedanta tradition has

907
00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:03,630
translated 3xu on and on who seem to

908
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:05,640
miss this out I mean they give mouth

909
00:42:11,780 --> 00:42:08,250
service to people like Ramakrishna who

910
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:11,790
believed deeply in charity and love

911
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:15,210
towards all but but who talk sometimes

912
00:42:19,580 --> 00:42:18,510
in a depressingly almost a go vistacal

913
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:19,590
way even though they think they've

914
00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:23,700
transcended ego so about you know those

915
00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:26,640
who are not enlightened you know just a

916
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:28,350
very dismissive and if they don't speak

917
00:42:32,990 --> 00:42:30,720
of their own enlightenment as something

918
00:42:35,630 --> 00:42:33,000
so interior that it doesn't have a

919
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:35,640
communal dimension it can happen I can

920
00:42:40,940 --> 00:42:37,320
happen in any tradition I'm just picking

921
00:42:42,980 --> 00:42:40,950
them out because that's because that's

922
00:42:45,890 --> 00:42:42,990
just one school of thought that puts

923
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:45,900
such an emphasis on gnosis that is often

924
00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:50,450
forgets that gnosis is also a gothy or

925
00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:53,550
charity David what are you working on

926
00:42:58,520 --> 00:42:56,250
now and and how can folks stay in

927
00:43:02,870 --> 00:42:58,530
contact with your work on an ongoing

928
00:43:04,730 --> 00:43:02,880
basis well the project I'm involved in

929
00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:04,740
at the moment I call it a project

930
00:43:09,410 --> 00:43:06,870
because it's endowed for this year at

931
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:09,420
Notre Dame the book out writing is a

932
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:12,710
deeper exploration of consciousness that

933
00:43:20,990 --> 00:43:19,170
in a more deliberate and maybe in a more

934
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:21,000
ambitious way deals with the themes that

935
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:24,210
are raised in the course of the argument

936
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:26,130
in the fourth chapter of my last book

937
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:28,480
and it's

938
00:43:36,510 --> 00:43:32,560
uh you know it's it's it starts with

939
00:43:39,150 --> 00:43:36,520
again a philosophical examination of

940
00:43:41,070 --> 00:43:39,160
natural ins and the naturalist models of

941
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:41,080
consciousness but it moves an extra way

942
00:43:47,570 --> 00:43:44,530
towards a metaphysical series a

943
00:43:51,210 --> 00:43:47,580
metaphysical and religious claims it's

944
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:51,220
it's a large project it's on the salt

945
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:52,960
let's put it that way on consciousness

946
00:43:58,770 --> 00:43:55,570
and the soul great and how do you try

947
00:44:00,540 --> 00:43:58,780
and incorporate any science in their

948
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,550
consciousness science that's leading us

949
00:44:04,859 --> 00:44:02,800
towards a deeper realization of this

950
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:04,869
extended consciousness we spend a lot of

951
00:44:09,390 --> 00:44:06,970
time on this show looking at the science

952
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:09,400
of near-death experience the science of

953
00:44:13,650 --> 00:44:11,200
extended consciousness all over the

954
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:13,660
place because I think it both completely

955
00:44:19,770 --> 00:44:16,630
falsifies this materialism that we're

956
00:44:22,290 --> 00:44:19,780
talking about and I think it's that gets

957
00:44:24,750 --> 00:44:22,300
us to the entry point or the the gateway

958
00:44:28,170 --> 00:44:24,760
of trying to being able to really

959
00:44:30,030 --> 00:44:28,180
consider seriously some of that stuff so

960
00:44:33,690 --> 00:44:30,040
do you delve into the science of it or

961
00:44:35,460 --> 00:44:33,700
not so much or not so much depends what

962
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:35,470
you mean by the sign sometimes for

963
00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:37,090
example near-death experience I think

964
00:44:42,150 --> 00:44:40,030
directly though in fact I may disappoint

965
00:44:46,470 --> 00:44:42,160
you but I go out of my way to avoid that

966
00:44:48,030 --> 00:44:46,480
because I once again you know of course

967
00:44:50,580 --> 00:44:48,040
it was never an issue with me since I

968
00:44:52,170 --> 00:44:50,590
don't believe in the mechanistic picture

969
00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:52,180
of the soul so near-death experience has

970
00:44:56,670 --> 00:44:54,700
just seemed you know not surprising to

971
00:44:59,160 --> 00:44:56,680
me although the accounts you read of

972
00:45:02,010 --> 00:44:59,170
them can be disappointing every but

973
00:45:05,310 --> 00:45:02,020
right and I've had encounters with

974
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:05,320
booths grace and I was at UVA you know

975
00:45:09,660 --> 00:45:07,690
so I did my doctorate and I taught there

976
00:45:12,359 --> 00:45:09,670
for a while and I corresponded with them

977
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:12,369
briefly but that's actually I mean again

978
00:45:20,250 --> 00:45:18,160
I'm what fascinates me or not the way in

979
00:45:22,530 --> 00:45:20,260
which extraordinary experiences which

980
00:45:24,359 --> 00:45:22,540
may be contentious and contended you

981
00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:24,369
cannot I mean you're not going to be

982
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:26,080
able to hammer that home with great

983
00:45:32,460 --> 00:45:29,200
success to convinced materialists no

984
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:32,470
matter how much evidence you think you

985
00:45:38,099 --> 00:45:36,490
amass there he's going to deny it he's

986
00:45:41,410 --> 00:45:38,109
going to dismiss a great deal of it in

987
00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:41,420
sanik doable or due to a fairly you know

988
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:44,630
the limits of our ability to measure

989
00:45:49,450 --> 00:45:47,210
deep electrical processes in the

990
00:45:52,660 --> 00:45:49,460
cerebral cortex and all the while that's

991
00:45:55,090 --> 00:45:52,670
going on he's going to be missing such

992
00:45:57,820 --> 00:45:55,100
fundamental issues that again as I say

993
00:45:59,890 --> 00:45:57,830
too would be available to him or her I

994
00:46:04,150 --> 00:45:59,900
guess I Patricia Churchland I must leave

995
00:46:06,030 --> 00:46:04,160
out of this or anyone like that just

996
00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:06,040
from ordinary from the ordinary

997
00:46:11,260 --> 00:46:08,630
phenomenology of consciousness and every

998
00:46:13,810 --> 00:46:11,270
moment of life however however ordinary

999
00:46:15,730 --> 00:46:13,820
the acts of consciousness see that

1000
00:46:19,810 --> 00:46:15,740
remains fascinating assuming because

1001
00:46:22,060 --> 00:46:19,820
once if you can get someone to see but

1002
00:46:24,540 --> 00:46:22,070
there's a fundamental irreducibility of

1003
00:46:28,290 --> 00:46:24,550
these of the structure of consciousness

1004
00:46:31,690 --> 00:46:28,300
to mechanistic materialism then the rest

1005
00:46:34,570 --> 00:46:31,700
becomes plausible follows it opens the

1006
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:34,580
mind but if you can't if you cannot if

1007
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:37,730
you can't get this through then no

1008
00:46:42,820 --> 00:46:40,850
amount of merely quantitative evidence

1009
00:46:44,620 --> 00:46:42,830
of other people's experiences that you

1010
00:46:47,470 --> 00:46:44,630
present them with will convince them of

1011
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:47,480
atoms they kind of agree with you I do

1012
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:49,520
think there's a path in there that that

1013
00:46:53,950 --> 00:46:52,430
I feel comfortable with and that is the

1014
00:46:56,730 --> 00:46:53,960
science if you will of near-death

1015
00:47:00,040 --> 00:46:56,740
experience and it is a science we have

1016
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:00,050
100 or 200 peer-reviewed papers on that

1017
00:47:06,330 --> 00:47:03,530
and we have science of of after death

1018
00:47:10,110 --> 00:47:06,340
communication all over the place but I

1019
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:10,120
think if we focus on that as a

1020
00:47:16,810 --> 00:47:13,970
falsification of materialism I think

1021
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:16,820
what it really brings forward is the

1022
00:47:22,210 --> 00:47:19,280
metaphysics of materialism right because

1023
00:47:24,220 --> 00:47:22,220
if it's if it's argued correctly it says

1024
00:47:26,170 --> 00:47:24,230
okay what's really at stake here guys

1025
00:47:28,570 --> 00:47:26,180
we're calling into question if you will

1026
00:47:30,910 --> 00:47:28,580
materialism and in the process let's

1027
00:47:31,990 --> 00:47:30,920
re-examine what they're really trying to

1028
00:47:34,660 --> 00:47:32,000
sell you here folks

1029
00:47:36,190 --> 00:47:34,670
because you are not a biological robot

1030
00:47:37,900 --> 00:47:36,200
in a meaningless universe and you never

1031
00:47:39,670 --> 00:47:37,910
thought you were but you kind of went

1032
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:39,680
along with it so I think when your

1033
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:42,800
confidence in materialism wanes a little

1034
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:45,650
bit I think that's an opening for what

1035
00:47:51,010 --> 00:47:47,750
you're talking about no you may be right

1036
00:47:53,350 --> 00:47:51,020
but again I mean let me put it this way

1037
00:47:54,710 --> 00:47:53,360
there's a certain sort of psychology

1038
00:47:57,620 --> 00:47:54,720
involved here

1039
00:47:59,839 --> 00:47:57,630
that can erect defenses against them but

1040
00:48:02,780 --> 00:47:59,849
let's let's hath ology I think you call

1041
00:48:05,089 --> 00:48:02,790
it quite correctly well sure but yes so

1042
00:48:09,349 --> 00:48:05,099
yeah if you can amass if you can

1043
00:48:10,820 --> 00:48:09,359
accumulate sufficient evidence you know

1044
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:10,830
that this should call into question

1045
00:48:16,210 --> 00:48:13,440
these easy and materialist assumptions

1046
00:48:19,820 --> 00:48:16,220
yeah sure that has a clarifying effect

1047
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:19,830
still again my interests are in in the

1048
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:22,290
whole how can I put a set of logical

1049
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:25,650
assumptions underlying naturalism they

1050
00:48:31,220 --> 00:48:29,040
don't accord with any experience at all

1051
00:48:33,140 --> 00:48:31,230
not just extraordinary experiences and

1052
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:33,150
they'd perfect you know good any

1053
00:48:37,310 --> 00:48:35,010
experience in all sitting the person

1054
00:48:40,310 --> 00:48:37,320
reading it may never have heard of an

1055
00:48:42,050 --> 00:48:40,320
ende may never have had an intuition of

1056
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:42,060
something happening at a distance or

1057
00:48:44,690 --> 00:48:43,650
something dreamt something before it

1058
00:48:47,089 --> 00:48:44,700
happened I mean these are all common

1059
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:47,099
experiences and they're attested to but

1060
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:48,960
they're tested to from the first person

1061
00:48:53,839 --> 00:48:51,330
stance but if the person who has no

1062
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:53,849
experience of this sitting alone in a

1063
00:49:01,700 --> 00:48:58,010
room reading an argument can from that

1064
00:49:03,950 --> 00:49:01,710
examine his or her own states of

1065
00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:03,960
consciousness and recognize the problem

1066
00:49:10,460 --> 00:49:07,800
then it's much harder simply to ignore

1067
00:49:13,940 --> 00:49:10,470
what becomes you know insistently

1068
00:49:15,890 --> 00:49:13,950
obvious day to day that is my interest I

1069
00:49:17,780 --> 00:49:15,900
mean it is I you know I am interested in

1070
00:49:20,030 --> 00:49:17,790
that's great sort of immigrant sighted

1071
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:20,040
in a philosophical account the structure

1072
00:49:25,790 --> 00:49:22,650
of consciousness in the way that it not

1073
00:49:28,370 --> 00:49:25,800
only leaves us without a naturalistic

1074
00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:28,380
Amitha self but it actually moves

1075
00:49:34,780 --> 00:49:30,660
towards statements about the

1076
00:49:38,089 --> 00:49:34,790
transcendent reality of consciousness

1077
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:38,099
what's the best way for people to follow

1078
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:40,770
what you're doing well christmas is

1079
00:49:45,970 --> 00:49:42,330
coming up I got lots of books out there

1080
00:49:50,859 --> 00:49:45,980
on the market and I I just I don't know

1081
00:49:53,930 --> 00:49:50,869
III and person who prefers to publish I

1082
00:49:55,730 --> 00:49:53,940
don't and for health reasons of late

1083
00:49:58,030 --> 00:49:55,740
anyway I don't do as much public

1084
00:50:02,480 --> 00:49:58,040
speaking but but I keep up a fairly

1085
00:50:04,609 --> 00:50:02,490
continuous flow of publication you know

1086
00:50:08,089 --> 00:50:04,619
you're I say that and we will have links

1087
00:50:08,810 --> 00:50:08,099
folks in the show notes you you do write

1088
00:50:11,210 --> 00:50:08,820
frequent

1089
00:50:12,620 --> 00:50:11,220
the both articles in in the longer form

1090
00:50:15,980 --> 00:50:12,630
of books there's lots of videos that

1091
00:50:18,050 --> 00:50:15,990
people can find on on YouTube so you are

1092
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:18,060
out there and I have to admit I'm not

1093
00:50:23,540 --> 00:50:21,510
very good media savvy so I don't really

1094
00:50:25,550 --> 00:50:23,550
know what things are on YouTube or not

1095
00:50:27,860 --> 00:50:25,560
but might you know I'm told by my

1096
00:50:30,950 --> 00:50:27,870
students that that's it's an easy thing

1097
00:50:35,390 --> 00:50:30,960
to find oh yeah oh yeah you're out there

1098
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:35,400
and and there's I I don't do you know

1099
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:37,440
blogging or anything of that sort I

1100
00:50:42,410 --> 00:50:40,110
really find computers kind of depressing

1101
00:50:45,050 --> 00:50:42,420
and and the cyber world kind of dull and

1102
00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:45,060
I prefer I'm just I mean I think I'm

1103
00:50:49,730 --> 00:50:46,980
just a few years too old to have the

1104
00:50:52,930 --> 00:50:49,740
right kind of enthusiasm for that so I'm

1105
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:52,940
afraid the publication rather than daily

1106
00:50:58,580 --> 00:50:56,610
articles well it's a but it's been

1107
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:58,590
absolutely great talking to you and

1108
00:51:03,230 --> 00:51:00,480
digging into your work I'm super excited

1109
00:51:05,270 --> 00:51:03,240
to hear about your book on consciousness

1110
00:51:07,340 --> 00:51:05,280
and the further exploration of the

1111
00:51:09,350 --> 00:51:07,350
philosophical underpinnings of it so

1112
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:09,360
we'll keep an eye out for that and if

1113
00:51:14,570 --> 00:51:11,370
you're up for it would love to have you

1114
00:51:40,380 --> 00:51:14,580
back on to talk about that one too okay

1115
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:43,120
thanks again to dr. David Bentley Hart

1116
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:45,680
for joining me today on skeptic oh I'd T

1117
00:51:50,799 --> 00:51:47,529
up one question from this interview

1118
00:51:53,890 --> 00:51:50,809
extraordinary for ordinary dr. Hart says

1119
00:51:56,620 --> 00:51:53,900
that he's explicitly drawn his attention

1120
00:51:58,900 --> 00:51:56,630
away from extraordinary human

1121
00:52:00,400 --> 00:51:58,910
consciousness and E's medium

1122
00:52:01,539 --> 00:52:00,410
communication out-of-body travel

1123
00:52:04,029 --> 00:52:01,549
whatever ever you want to go with that

1124
00:52:07,420 --> 00:52:04,039
he said instead we should look at our

1125
00:52:10,089 --> 00:52:07,430
ordinary experiences with everyday

1126
00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:10,099
consciousness and the extraordinariness

1127
00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:13,400
of that ordinary consciousness it's an

1128
00:52:17,769 --> 00:52:15,440
interesting idea especially given the

1129
00:52:19,269 --> 00:52:17,779
topics we cover here on skeptic oh so

1130
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:19,279
I'd like to hear what you think about

1131
00:52:24,039 --> 00:52:22,490
that extraordinary or ordinary of course

1132
00:52:25,569 --> 00:52:24,049
the place to let me know what you're

1133
00:52:30,999 --> 00:52:25,579
thinking is through this skeptical

1134
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:31,009
website at ske PTI koat.com from there

1135
00:52:34,990 --> 00:52:32,480
you can bounce on over the forum and

1136
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:35,000
join us in the dialogue there or send me

1137
00:52:39,339 --> 00:52:37,490
an email send me a facebook however you

1138
00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:39,349
want to connect with me I'll try and

1139
00:52:42,970 --> 00:52:41,359
respond of course while you're at the

1140
00:52:45,430 --> 00:52:42,980
web site you can check out all the

1141
00:52:47,319 --> 00:52:45,440
previous almost 300 shows a skeptic oh

1142
00:52:49,329 --> 00:52:47,329
you can download them subscribe to them

1143
00:52:50,890 --> 00:52:49,339
I hope you do all that stuff you can

1144
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:50,900
subscribe to the newsletter where we'll

1145
00:52:54,549 --> 00:52:52,640
keep you up to date and when a new

1146
00:52:56,019 --> 00:52:54,559
episode comes out so that might be

1147
00:52:58,029 --> 00:52:56,029
something you want to check out as well

1148
00:53:00,220 --> 00:52:58,039
I do have some great shows coming up

1149
00:53:02,289 --> 00:53:00,230
many of them have been suggested to me

1150
00:53:04,990 --> 00:53:02,299
by you and by the way if you have a

1151
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:05,000
suggestion for a guest email me let me

1152
00:53:09,849 --> 00:53:06,890
know I can't guarantee that we'll always

1153
00:53:11,049 --> 00:53:09,859
do the show you suggest and you might

1154
00:53:13,150 --> 00:53:11,059
have to sell me a little bit on that

1155
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,160
along the way but that's a fun part of

1156
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:15,440
the process as well the main thing is to

1157
00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:18,410
stay in touch stay connected take this

1158
00:53:23,370 --> 00:53:20,240
little skeptical experiment where you

1159
00:53:26,019 --> 00:53:23,380
want it to go by getting involved or

1160
00:53:27,849 --> 00:53:26,029
don't get involved and just stick around

1161
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:27,859
because we did have some good shows

1162
00:53:32,410 --> 00:53:30,319
coming up as I just mentioned well

1163
00:53:35,259 --> 00:53:32,420
that's gonna do it for this Christmas

1164
00:53:36,090 --> 00:53:35,269
episode of skeptic oh it is just a few

1165
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:36,100
days

1166
00:53:40,710 --> 00:53:39,010
for Christmas as I record this so Merry

1167
00:53:43,650 --> 00:53:40,720
Christmas Happy Holidays all that stuff

1168
00:53:46,410 --> 00:53:43,660
the main thing is enjoy the break and

1169
00:54:05,420 --> 00:53:46,420
until next time take care and bye for